Welcome to the show, everyone, it’s the Krypto, like I’m super excited to have on today, Forest from the YouTube channel has show she Forest Hills Kalmen It’s Gehlen living the dream. I’m happy to be here. Happy to have you on. We’re gonna be talking about Cardno today. So I know a lot of Cardon’s fans out there that have wanted the Cardno conversation to have. So we talked about Cordona, the tests that the main net, the token velocity, the academic method. We also talk about a theory M and if Gardino can actually supplant a theorem and its current crown as the smart contract platform and a whole bunch of other fun stuff, that’s gonna be a great conversation. Right. And I think let’s just dig straight in here for us and have good talk about the test net that we see actually running currently for Hard-On. And of course, the main net coming at some point in the future. You know, we’ve seen so many delays with many cryptocurrency projects, obviously. But what are your thoughts on the test? That is the test net going well and the speculation. When do you think we’re gonna see that main net coming out? Those are great questions. And I think you’ve seen, you know, Iowa HCA and the whole team over there shying away from giving hard deadlines because of how many times they’ve done that. And then we’ve missed them, which is fine. I think it’s probably an OK approach. The tests then, I think has gone really well, incentivize tests that that’s running with the sheli stake pools and such. I think getting if I remember their numbers correctly, we’re getting close to about a thousand staple’s in operation, which is pretty significant considering these are run by people, you know, close to the projects, I’m sure. But there are a lot of random people that just picked it up and thought it was cool and started setting up the state pools. So if you get that type of, you know, participation in the main net release, that’ll be a quite, quite good thing to see in terms of the maisonette release time and the release date. I mean, I am I know as as well as anyone else that I don’t know. But the reality is they have the Genesis block set up for their high school, which is the real implementation. I think the release candidate running sort of in like a private test net right now. So that means that the sheli code is running and it’s operating and they have the chain running. So hopefully we’ll see a public test net and then within two weeks after that, we’ll have a main net release for Sheli, which my estimate. Towards the end of June, early July, I think we’re going to see that happen. That would be very exciting to see the main that actually come out. It’s been such a long time and I first as a I first bought Cardno tokens, the ADA ADA tokens back in. Gosh, must’ve been either October or November of 2017. And so it was it’s been a long hold waiting for the main net to come out. Right. It’s. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, they take the they take the slow road to implementing and delivering this stuff. And I’ve said on a lot of different, you know, and a lot of different instances that that approach, which is not bad, you know, it’s a lot of times you get one shot at making these types of deployments and pushing out. And you may not if you make a mistake and it doesn’t work well or things get hacked or it’s not secure or people don’t use it, then all that work is for nothing. So you want to make sure that everything is is ready to go. Yeah, I think that’s something that a lot of investors get very frustrated with is how slow things can move sometimes. And you have to realize what’s actually being developed when you look at something like Cardno. Right. We look at the challenges that a theorem is going through right now to actually influence some of the things that Cardon’s work in implementing at the moment. And it’s it’s massive in its scope and its technology. It takes time and it takes time to get it right. And like you said, there’s only a one chance to launch it correctly. And if you screw up only then that’s it. That’s safe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sorry for playing. Thanks. Thanks. Thanks again. Bye. Yeah, for sure. I mean, people get shaken and especially when it, when it’s something so fundamental, like something that’s like a consensus protocol or it’s a brand new B net protocol implementation that people have to upgrade their wallets and it’s really not backwards compatible. You can’t just revert. People freak out if it’s not working properly. And so it’s important for it to work and a theorem is going through the same thing right now. They’re being noncommittal dates. They’re being you know, they’re working really hard on on ironing out bugs with proof of stake because it is not easy to make proof of stake secure. I don’t think people understand how. I guess fundamentally insecure proof of stake is in its raw format. There’s a lot that goes into that psychologically to make users do the things that you want them to do and not do the wrong thing, which is form cartels and coalitions and allow exchanges to dominate everything. Like it’s really hard, really hard. That’s you bring up some excellent points there. And we’ve seen this play out with some networks where it just becomes a small cartel of extremely rich token holders and they vote for each other to make sure they all stay in old power all the time. And that’s a very, very difficult thing. So in terms of, I guess, trying to talk your way out of such a situation, what are some things that a network can actually do to try to say, hey, we’re going to try to figure out a way for this to not happen? Right. To put the game mechanics in at a technology level where it will incentivize people to do what we want them to do? Absolutely. You have the weapon of choice is true randomness, which is really hard to achieve in computer science. And that’s why people fail. Just make, you know, like a random number generator, roll the dice. But those things can be gamed, as we’ve seen in, you know, a theorem. A lot of organizations and companies were building smart contracts for gambling or for, you know, just random games. Right, where they assigned a random person some sort of rights or privileges based on a pseudo random number. That’s, I guess, block height or block number. But it’s very predictable. If you’re a minor, you can guess that thing. You can figure out what it’s gonna be before it actually is. And so then that’s not actual randomness. It’s not true randomness. So they want to introduce that into the core protocols so that you don’t have predictability in terms of who is going to be the next block maker, who’s going to be a validator, who’s going to get access to which slot. You know, you’re gonna have a better chance if you have more ADA or in a theorems case, more ether locked up. But randomness is going to protect you from having that predictable cartel member sort of running the show. And that’s the number one thing. There is a lot there are a lot of levers that you can pull, but that’s the main one is randomness. Very, very interesting. No. One thing that I think is probably going to be most exciting for a lot of people out there is how the token economics are really going to change for Cardona when we actually see the main net coming out. Because right now, Catano is basically incentive from point A to point B. And that’s about it, right? There’s no staking there’s not really much else going on. There’s no applications using card on or anything at the moment. So what are your thoughts on how that token velocity is going to form up? Once we see the main net, go live and we actually see a wider array of people being able to access staking. Yeah, I mean, I think it’s hard to quantify in terms of what we will actually see. But fundamentally, this is the first time where ADA is going to be used for something. Other than transactions like you just said, you know, and not only that, this is an opportunity now for Ayda. Stakeholders’, I guess you can call them really, because you own. You believe and right now it’s speculative. You believe in where Catano is going now gives you the opportunity to actually contribute to the security of the network to contribute and earn rewards for doing that. In terms of locking up in a state pool or running a state pool, what what have you. And so you look at projects like Tasos, whose main use case right now and the main reason why it is so popular is because people are addicted to getting those rewards for baking. Their tansy’s right. They love it. And I think the same thing is going to happen in, you know, in the Catano world with ADA, even if in the short term you don’t see a ton of new utility utility in and of itself is going to be being able to stake an urn. People love that stuff. So I think it’s good news. People do like making money. And it’s it’s really interesting. When you’re talking earlier, I was thinking a lot of people have this. When they come into crypto currencies, they kind of don’t realize that crypto currencies are fundamentally different from something like stocks. Right. So in terms of everything, both in terms of technological development. Right. You’re actually looking at a giant computer network being developed that hopefully will get enough of a network effect, that it will be relevant in the future. Right. When you buy tokens for that, you’re hoping that these tokens will have value on that network in the future. But you don’t have a stake in the company. You don’t have equity necessarily in. You know, you even have the tokens. But there’s no that’s not necessarily worth a direct link to the company. Yeah, yeah, that’s exactly it. I think that for a lot of people speaking able to stake tokens really gives them that feeling like, okay, I’m really getting something for holding onto these tokens instead of just hopefully price go up in the future. So it’s pretty interesting. Yeah, go ahead. Like looking at it like utility, you know, it’s you’re investing in a commodity like the fuel for a network. And if the network itself does not have users or value and doesn’t solve a problem, that Tolkan is going to remain valueless. And so that’s the thing. Like, you’re not you’re so right. You’re not investing in a company or an organization because ideally, if it’s structured properly, that cryptocurrency should not be tied to that company and its existence. And if it is, you have a problem. Right. So I think it’s hard to to think that way because we’ve never had something like this. And most of our our lifetimes in terms of investing. In terms of solving a problem, is there? We look at Cardona, right? There’s so many black chains out there right now, you, Algren, Scott. There may not out. And there’s hash Graff and. And so many 300 more down the list. Do you think Cardona really has the chance to stand out? And if so, what is the innovations that you see that are going to make Cardno be that like, oh, this one’s really something special. This is so unique compared to the others that, you know, everyone’s got to flock to it and use it. Mm hmm. Yeah, I think the first benefit and the first innovation is almost a non-technical one. I think they started trying to solve the problems that came out of the first theory and implementation before a theorem did. And so I think that they were able to do a lot of research and start this like formally verified academic style research project that was redesigning. A better a theorem, right? And that was the whole idea behind Catano in the first place. And now they’re to the point where you said we’ve got to go and redo the virtual machine. That’s a big thing. We want to redo smart contract execution. That’s a game changer. I think that’s the biggest thing that people aren’t talking about is go again because everyone likes staking and everyone likes this. You know, making money thing. But their stuff with Pluto. They’re smart contract language and their new virtual machine that hopefully is going to come the end of this year. That’s the biggest win. And that’s the thing that’s going to set it apart from a theory. And because it’s a whole new deferent like tool set for developers to work with and hundreds of thousand strong Haskell developer community out there can easily jump right in and do stuff day one without having to learn a new language like solidity. It’s all going to feel at home for them. So that’s a big one. And if they missed out a little more and say, hey, we’re gonna go for all these really deterministic use cases like financial services. Right. Deterministic as same inputs, always get the same outputs. You like that in computer science again, because it’s predictable. If they reach down and go that route, I don’t see why they can’t take market share from a theory that’s starting to go in a totally different direction, which is like true DFI like no custodian’s. And like all these flash loan things, Cardon could slot in in the more like traditional finance sense where you have real entities playing in this space and running their financial services on a blocking network. I think that would be huge. When I think about all these different block chains, I think about what we’ve seen play out with social media. And maybe it’s not the best analogy, but, you know, Facebook is Facebook. Right. And no Facebook competitor has succeeded because Facebook already had the network effect when Twitter came out. Twitter was different from Facebook. So it was able to succeed because it found its own niche with Instagram was able to succeed because it found its own nation. All the competitors to Twitter have not done as well as Twitter because they’re only trying to recreate Twitter. And Twitter’s already got the network effects they’ve done scrammed, so on, so forth, then down the line. So I think what you mentioned there is just yeah, it’s it’s really got to find its own niche where it’s going to come in and say, hey, this is this is the thing that we do. Right. A theorem does that and that’s great. But we do this and we do it better than anyone else. But you see right now, for example, Tasos is kind of. Looking at that same kind of market, trying to get those financial services onboard with them, right. It’s going to be competitive. And I think that, you know, it is similar to social media in a sense. And I would say it’s even more similar to the early days of like software as a service. And these big products, like you have the escapee’s and oracles of the world where they built basically the same tools for the same reasons, with the same functionality. But did it slightly differently, integrate it differently and provide different tools? I think that’s where these protocols are going to be able to start differentiating themselves even within the same use case, each by saying we’re going to focus on the end consumer and we’re going to have, you know, pre-built adapters for mobile applications so end users can actually use this stuff without, you know, whatever company you are doing this from scratch. And then the others going to say, well, we’re going to focus on enterprise and just link up with all the backend. Enterprise software is like SICP and Oracle and Salesforce and all that sort of stuff. You know, there’s some opportunity now for these protocols to start targeting specific business niches and also technicians that they can pull some market share from. Whereas a theorem is very much like we’re just a protocol. Build what you want with it. And if it’s cool, we’ll tweet about it. Kitto and then that’s the amorphous blob. We’ll take it all. Yeah. You know, it’s a theorem is very much like the true a theorem reminds me of the Linux community. Like it. Linux never took over the entire world, but there was a lot of stuff that Linux just dominates on like as an operating system. And I think a theorem is kind of slotting into that role here where it’s like we have the fundamental tech and we’re building and growing. And it hasn’t always worked perfectly, but we figured it out and people are gonna be building with it for years to come. And then because so many other protocols have taken from a theorem in terms of their concept, then you’re gonna have. OK. We built our product on a theorem. Now let’s find our niche block chain protocol. That’s the card on the Tesla’s the whatever. They’re gonna find their way there for their specific. Use case and needs. That’s my vision. I may be totally wrong, but who knows? We’re just the thought about cryptocurrency. I mean, you know, it’s let’s keep some of the fray. I want to keep a mind out there. Something interesting you brought up, too, that I wanted to expand on all the more is actually the idea of, you know, the different coding languages and things like this. And it’s like you said, you get really excited about the idea, want to make money, get rewards. Right. But your rewards will be worth nothing because you’re getting paid in a cryptocurrency for that staking. And I’ve talked about this with different stake networks. Yeah, it’s great if you get, you know, 15 percent or whatever five percent on this random cryptocurrency, but nobody wants it to sell you worthless as zero value. There’s no reason feel forgotten by this cryptocurrency, whereas with actually seeing things developed on it that creates token velocity that actually people wants to buy this, to build things, to use applications and all these different things. And, you know, it’s interesting because Cardon’s chose to use Haskell. Right. Yes. And so that already had a developer community behind it. But what we’ve seen with Theory I and it’s this kind of that where the question’s going is we’ve seen solidity become a big, you know, language in terms of development. And so more and more people have been learning solidity and moving onboard with that. And actually the theory M Web assembly update whenever that happens. Yeah. A couple of years up. The years probably. But that’s going to introduce some new coding languages as well. So the I think C and C++ and maybe Reisen. Viter. Yes. So there you go. So there you go. So that that’s going to make a theorem essentially much more competitive. And then it almost seemed that Adorno is the the weird knish guy is only using Haskell, whereas, you know, theorems going to have all these languages available. Yeah. I mean, I think that, again, if you have a competent virtual machine team, you can integrate new scripting languages like, you know, you have a on it, which is now rebranded to something else. But they they want the Java root and said we’re gonna take advantage of the millions of Java developers that are out there and netsch down. I think in that regard, it’s an okay move for a smaller network that has less going for it. Because if you target one group of people, it’s very likely you can get them to build stuff and then you can expand from there. Whereas a theory now is limited by people who just hate solidity and don’t want to touch it. You know, I follow codes and that’s my day job. That’s what I do every day, like every day. And, you know, I love it and I hate it at the same time because you can build a lot with it. It’s cool. It’s grown like exponentially. It’s so much better than it used to be. And the tools are bar none that better than any other network out there for for building things on a theorem. And that’s why people stay. But. From an operations perspective, when you go to actually ship it and you actually go to put it into main net or production, as we like to say. That’s when you start to lose sleep because you’re like, I know that the code works. I know that it looks right. And we maybe even gotten it audited by a third party who is like a master with solidity. And it can still get broken. It can still get hacked because there are just trapdoors that you can’t see and you can’t find. And then someone finds that you’re like, oh, well, now we know, you know. But at that point, it’s too late. And you see, this would defy, you know. Taylor Monahan. I mean, she’s always talking about this stuff like what how when are we going to learn that nothing is on hackable in the first place? And it’s even less. It’s even more true now when we’re talking about solidity and the stuff that’s going out there live where your code is basically public. You know, it’s it’s something people need to think about. Oh, absolutely. Especially with decentralised finance. You have to realize that there are lots of risks remain. I saw a story the other day, I think was a platform called Hedgcock. And basically they had had their code audited. So they had thought that everything was OK. But actually, the code auditors missed an S on one of the lines of code. And that meant that there was a bug that basically when certain options expired, that thirty thousand dollars worth of a theorem is now gone forever. So it’s just locked away and like some wallet that you no longer have access to. Yeah. I mean, even if you’re doing like absolute just with information, like it’s a good data like digital identity storage or something like that, you know, it’s not money, but people still get pissed off if it breaks because that’s their information. Now, that doesn’t work, you know. And so it’s important across the board for these things to get found out. And it’s just not that easy. You know, it’s just not that easy. So, I mean, having a having a language, you know, I think of languages like Python and languages like Haskell, you know, why won’t dive deeply into text. So don’t worry. Don’t click away. But they’re like languages that give you some training wheels in terms of not giving you so much room to make stupid mistakes because it’s like their formal instructions. The computer knows what you want it to do already. You’re just kind of putting it in the right order and everything’s predictable. And, you know, it just makes sense. Whereas solidity is like this Wild West language. You can do basically anything, but you can also blow things up in a million different ways. Yeah. And we’ve seen that happen a lot of times. A lot of times. And I think the confusion that a lot of people think when they see these kind of bugs and different hacks and things happen is that it’s not a theory, em, that’s being hacked. I think a lot of you’ll hear all something lullabye theory. Um, like, no, it’s that was an application that, you know, developers came in, they built navigation on top of the theory of network. And, you know, they made a mistake when coding that. And it’s like you said, it’s because solidity offers more challenges for developers, whereas you had these more established languages, they use these more formal procedures to make mistakes like this less likely to happen. Yeah, the more freedom you have, the more likely you are to find yourself in a position where you have coated yourself into a corner and there is a bug in there because people use things differently than you’d ever imagine. You know, as you’re developing software, you and you know exactly what the use cases are, what the user should be doing. But then you give it to the user and there is a reason you have user acceptance. Testing is you have the user and they use it completely differently than you thought they would. And so then you have to go back to the drawing board and fix it. But unfortunately, it’s, you know, in a theory of mind and solidity and in all block change, for that matter, you don’t always have the native ability to upgrade your code and fix it. It’s it’s there and it’s there to stay. So. There you go. The next question I have here for you is a theorem has this commitment to get a million developers building on top of theory? Obviously, they’re quite away from that one. But it’s a nice idea, right, to try and really incentivize. Yes, exactly. I think what we do see Web assembly come out at some point in the future. That’s that will probably get even more people time. Shali on board. But the question I have for you is, do you think that a theorem has already won the network effect game? Will every other block chain, you know, whether be Cardon or Tasos or anyone else? Will they always be, you know, second fiddle to a theory? Ms. General awesomeness? Yeah, it’s a great question. I think a lot of it is going to depend on a given theorem like. Messes up with this ethereal 2.0 situation or Web assemblages. No shows or, you know, if something happens. We can’t predict that. Then I think there’s there’s a huge opening for other networks to come in. But I think it regardless, I think the future really does look like a theory and being an incubator for a lot of ideas because you can rapidly prototype and put something out and get people to use it because they have so many users, so many developers. And it’s way cheaper right now to hire a, you know, entry level solidity developer who’s taken some courses and they can get it started and then hire an auditor and really get it across the finish line than it is for you to sit there and not release your product and wait for one of these other protocols to catch up. You can launch a lot of companies are just launching it now, getting users and then later they can migrate. Know the lube network with crypto zombies. That game they started on a theory and they got a huge following. They built some great products and then they realized this doesn’t work for us. We know what we need. We’re gonna build our own thing. And they have the network now to help their game scale. And I think you’re going to see that same thing happen. People will still incubate on theory. They’ll get users, they’ll build it out, and then they’ll find a niche chain that has specific avenue and specific parameters that work for their app. And then that’s that’s what’ll happen. I think when it’s interesting that Bloom, because obviously we’re seeing a lot of different layer to innovation happening right now because a theorem is main chain, still quite limited. Right. It’s certainly working on a lot of things to try and make that better, obviously. But it’s limited, right? We’ve seen Isee K roll ups coming out, which have done a lot. That’s implemented now, that’s working. Now we see different solutions like a like Mattick and stuff as well. So to what extent do you think that Layer two is going to be really just totally game changing for all these crypto currencies and do what do you think about the tradeoffs between the security of a layer to versus doing things on the main chain? Yeah, I think the I think layer 2s are always sacrificing. You always sacrifice something. You know, it’s the same thing that I say about, you know, the block size to be and all that. It’s a given take. It’s not as simple as just flipping a switch. And now you’re more scalable. You’re giving up. The slowness that is the main chain, but the high security and finality that is the main chain for something faster. That’s on the layer, too. It’s also a wider attack surface. There’s more places where hackers and other malicious entities can go to mess something up and to steal stuff. So that’s another point. But I think layer two’s are always going to be around and they’re always going to be important for settling transactions of digital assets and of actual value. You know, whether that be cryptocurrency or whatever, whatever else. Fast between known entities where parties really trust and know each other. And then reconciling that in one transaction with multiple line items on chain. Getting that’s going to exist forever because quite frankly, it just doesn’t make sense to do that on chain all the time. So there will be more ways to do that securely. And I know lightning has gotten some flack, some of the implementations of lightning, because people think lightning is one thing. It’s actually like a bunch of things. It’s a bunch of different protocols and they’re all trying to do the same thing. You know, all of these have security flaws and issues that are going to have to get resolved before it’s ready for, you know, moving billions of dollars a year. And I think that’s a good point to bring up, is that it’s still so early for really everything in cryptocurrency, particularly layer two, scaling solutions. It’s there particularly new technologies. I mean, lightning has really only existed in a functional state for about a year and a half, approximately. I mean, all the layer to stuff we’re seeing coming out for a theory now, it’s six months old. If if even you know. So it’s really new technology for sure. Yeah, it’s it’s another layer pun intended of PROCOL Wars where you’re going to have a bunch of people that are trying to do the exact same thing and we might seize multiple survive and each serve different use cases, or we might find one that’s like the protocol that works with this block chain network and they survive. It’s really hard to say, but a lot of people are duking it out for layer two right now as well. Sure. And, of course, a theory. And when it gets sharding implemented, Sharding is expected to bring massive scalability to the theory am at the core layer, right at the base layer of the chain instead of having to go to layer two. So that would actually bring it up to the kind of levels where we could see real, you know, Ellman’s like visa kind of levels with really a very highly decentralized network. So I guess my final question here for you for today, ethereal 2.0, it’s coming at some point, right? Do you think that they’re going to be successful in their deployment of a theory 2.0? Do you think that we’re actually gonna see a delivery on all the promises of a Theorem 2.0? I think we’re going to see delivery on all the promises of a Theorem 2.0. I’m not sold or positive that we’re gonna see the delivery of these things on the timeline that people think we will. And I also think that the way that. Like the phase zero that’s going to happen where they launch a Theorem 2.0 officially in like July maybe is not a Theorem 2.0 like. And that’s it. It’s a Theorem 2.0 foundation. Like this is the core stuff. It’s the the main net network that runs with proof of stake. It’s the like the basis for the sharding technologies. But the rest of the stuff like including web assembly for the new virtual machine and including, you know, all the sharding, making a theorem stateless so that you don’t have to use a solid state drive to store the entire state of the theorems network like all this stuff. Not easy to build. Not easy to do. It’s gonna take time and. I hope people are ready to be patient on that, because I think it’ll it’ll come, but it’ll be a while. Personally. It’s a waiting game, guys waiting. Good, good, good. Tech doesn’t happen overnight. That’s for sure. I mean, look at all the people that have you have you have ether. And you know, or you have Ayda or whatever it like your. Of course, you want things to come out because you think it’s good for what you hold. I’ll tell you what’s really bad for what you hold is if they botch it and it blows up and it doesn’t work. Expect that to be worth nada. So you’d rather them do it right than do it fast? Just my two cents. That’s right. Well, I mean, I don’t know the market cap of a theorem is that right now it’s let’s throw a number out there, 20 billion dollars. If they break it and they they screw it up, that’s 20 billion dollars worth of lost value. Just Godling, I think, record on it. It’s that Cordona is probably what it two billion or something right now. Market cap. It’s a massive risk if they screw it up for sure. But I would argue the stakes are even like are exponentially higher for a theorem because if they, if they mess up and a theorem like people lose faith in a theorem and they yank ether that destroys every D.R.C. 20 project on planet Earth, some will survive because they’ll move somewhere else. But there’s a lot riding on a theory. I’m not messing this up. And that’s why it’s taken so long, because it’s already a hard problem as it is. But if they mess up, they destroy countless other companies. And I don’t think they want to do that. Obviously, that’s right. They would take a lot of people down with them if they had to. Yeah, so. Virus world, it’s the Wild West, it is that it really as Wild West out here in cryptos still, I think that’s just the main message hit home for people is that we’re still early. This tech is still largely experimental across a lot of the block chains. Like it’s it’s a process and we’re going through that. And that is, I guess, where the the economic opportunity lies is that you are getting in on these networks before they become mainstream. It’s like we’re, you know, the 90s for the Internet. Right. We still have all these new things coming out and things are going to fail. Things are going to break catastrophically in some cases, you know, so. Stay frosty one for us. Thank you so much for coming on, Mansmann. It’s been a great chat. Hope everyone really enjoyed it. Have more tech focused chat, talk about all these different things that I don’t it’s not. Well, and Charles, so awesome. Thanks so much for coming on. Yeah, absolutely. Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it. And hope everyone has a fantastic rest of your week’s last weekend. Thank you.